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Zh.S.Yelyubayev (Ж.С.Елюбаев) Interview for the Magazine «Jurist»
The Cause of Lawmaking Favors Conservative Approaches
As has been our custom, in this edition of the magazine, like in the others before, an interview with the personality of the issue is preceded with a brief autobiography. This is what Zhumageldy Yelyubayev has to tell about himself.
I cannot say I regard myself as one of this country’s prominent or famous people. Rather, I see myself as a common citizen and a worker for my country. Hence, my own life story is much like that of any one of the many thousands of people of my own generation. My ancestors from the Kipchak tribe had for centuries lived in the southern parts of what is today Omsk Oblast in the Russian Federation. Destiny or the Almighty must have wished, however, for me to be born, on 4 March 1954, in a Virgin Lands settlers’ tent on the Kutuzovsky State Farm that was just being started then in Irtysh District, Pavlodar Oblast to where, just like many thousands of their contemporaries, my parents, Saken, the son of Yelyubay and Togay, the daughter of Ospan had moved to cultivate the region’s newly developed wildlands. That was how, by birth, I became a native of Kazakhstan long before the collapse of the Soviet Union and the rise of independent Kazakhstan. Following my birth, my parents moved back to their own native lands in Omsk Oblast and it was there that I spent my childhood and schools years. From then on, my life developed similarly to that of most of the younger people of the Soviet period - conscription service in the armed forces, membership in the Young Communist League, in trade unions, and then in the Communist Party, University studies, professional work following the government assignment upon the completion of the higher education institution, and so on. I must say life has been good to me. I was given some good lessons early in life when I served as a conscript in the Soviet Coast Guard units, at the time under the KGB command, on the Island of Sakhalin. I then went on to enroll myself in the Department of Courts and Prosecutions of Sverdlovsk Law Institute, one of the better law schools of the time, where I was lucky enough to have learned the fundamentals of law from such outstanding legal scholars as Sergei Alekseev, Oktyabr Krasavchikov, Veniamin Yakovlev, and many other celebrated and distinguished law academics. Upon graduation from the law school, I was privileged to be assigned to serve as a judge, something that had, for a long-time, been the hope and ambition of mine. I started my professional career at Ivdel Municipal Court in Sverdlovsk Oblast and it was there that I learned my first practical lessons in the judiciary vocation. Later, in 1987, I came to be assigned to Kazakhstan where I went on to pursue my professional career successively as Deputy President, Almaty Municipal Court; Justice, Kazakhstan Supreme Court; Deputy Prosecutor General; and then Vice Minister of Justice of the Republic of Kazakhstan. For nearly two years, I worked as Instructor and then Adviser with the State and Law Department of the Central Committee of the Kazakhstan Communist Party. It proved to be an excellent school of public administration, given that, at the time, the Communist Party Central Committee was, for all practical reasons, the supreme authority, not just for the Communist Party, but the land’s supreme public authority as well. Then came a sudden and entirely new turn in my life when, after nearly twenty years in the government service, I got an invitation from one of the world’s leading oil corporations Chevron to get myself involved in international oil business. For just over eight years now, I have served as General Manager of the Negotiations and Legal Department at Tengizchevroil LLP, the leader in the Kazakhstan’s oil sector. Speaking of my family life, I am truly a happy person. For over twenty-two years, I and my wife Zhibek, the daughter of Yerbulan have been building our life together. Just like me, she, too, was educated in Russia. She graduated from Sverdlovsk Institute of National Economy and then went on to work in different positions in the government natural gas concern Gazprom, later in the ROK Construction Ministry, and now, for over ten years, she has worked in the Kazakh banking sector. My children are my particular source of pride and joy. My daughter Zhanar is a graduate of the Kazakh State Academy of Humanities and Law. She had earned her English Bachelor of Laws degree at Nottingham University in the UK and then went on to study for her Master of Laws degree at one of Britain’s prestigious educational institutions, the London School of Economics. She now works in the Almaty office of an international law firm. Later this year my son will graduate from the Kazakhstan Institute of Management, Economics and Strategic Research. For my own modest contribution to the country’s progress, in late 2004, I was decorated with the Order of Kurmet (Order of Honor, in Kazakh).
You are intimately familiar with the issues facing the subsoil use sector today. From your own standpoint, what can you say about the development of the practice of legislative control of relationships in this particular economic sector?
The subsoil use sector in Kazakhstan remains one of the high-priority development areas, on the progress of which, without overstating, the success of the whole national economy depends to a large extent. Early on in the previous decade, it was the involvement of foreign capital in the subsoil use sector that had made it possible to solve the difficult tasks of socioeconomic transformation of the day. And today, now that the Republic of Kazakhstan has established strong political and economic positions for itself in the whole of the Eurasian space and has successfully developed and perfected its market institutions, this particular economic sector continues to serve as the basis of the nation’s economic security. Speaking of legislative control in the subsoil use field, I have to say that, overall, Kazakhstan has been able to build a good regulatory framework, which can serve as a sound basis for its successful future development. Let us go back in time, for instance, to the 1995 period of parliamentary and government crisis when not only the country’s economy but its very political future was under threat. It was then that, realizing full well the whole significance of the subsoil use sector for the Kazakh people and for the country as a whole, President Nursultan Nazarbayev, using the extraordinary powers he had been given, issued a number of Presidential Decrees having the force of law, which came to form the foundations of a legislative basis underlying the regulatory management of relations in the subsoil use field. These were as follows: the Presidential Decree On Licensing, the Presidential Decree On Subsoil and Subsoil Use, the Presidential Decree On Petroleum, the Presidential Decree On Taxes and Other Obligatory Payments, and some other. The above Decrees later came to be updated and given the full legal status of the laws of the land. They were later supplemented with a number of further legislative enactments and government and departmental regulatory instruments, which now regulate the complex relationships in the subsoil use sector. It is significant that, given that this particular economic sector attracts by far the largest share of all foreign investment in Kazakhstan, the relationships in this sector are also governed by regulatory legal instruments concerning the problems of the utilization and protection of investments. In other words, there is a whole complex system of regulatory legal acts, upon the correct application of which depends the success or failure of the development of the whole subsoil use sector. In view of the above, I personally find it difficult to share the view of those who claim that the Republic of Kazakhstan has no laws to correctly and efficiently regulate the relationships in this economic sector. What we should be talking about here is the need for further improvements in the existing legislation, the need for its continued systematization and correct application, and the need for reducing the overall number of the existing central government and departmental regulatory legal instruments, which all too often tend to contradict one another and give rise to conflict situations. It is in this particular area that a great amount of work remains to be done. Unfortunately, however, it should be noted that the practical application of laws in the subsoil use sector today is not developing in the right direction, something that affects in the negative way the concerned business entities’ activities. The provisions of respective laws and other regulatory legal instruments tend to be used largely for the purpose of asserting the authority of government regulatory agencies or individual government officials. The numerous regulatory legal instruments sometimes tend to be used unlawfully either as a tool of interference in the financial and business activities of companies operating in the subsoil use sector or as a source of unfounded or illegitimate replenishment of the government coffers or else as leveraging tools to establish monopoly positions in the various neighboring economic sectors. I have already written regarding this matter in previous issues of this Journal and in other publications. These problems have been addressed repeatedly at various legal gatherings, conferences, and seminars, yet nothing much has changed in this area to date. So as not to sound speculative on this issue, let me give you a graphic example of ill-considered improvisation in the field of lawmaking. In December 2004, on the initiative of several government departments, amendments were made to Article 30-5 of the ROK Law On Petroleum establishing a total ban on the flaring of natural gas. That legislative innovation was made without any consideration for the fact that none of the Kazakhstan’s many companies operating in the oil and gas sector had the technology required to recycle the natural gas rather than flare it. In the event, with a stroke of the legislator’s pen, so to speak, all of the country’s producing enterprises in the oil and gas industry overnight found themselves on the wrong side of the law, with the resulting tough economic sanctions imposed amounting to tens of millions of dollars. The current technology used by the oil and gas producing and processing companies, which, by the way, can hardly be described as being out of date, cannot change overnight, given that we are dealing here with advanced industrial and technological complexes. It may take quite a long time, often many years, to change the existing technology. That legislative requirement had remained in effect for nearly eleven months. And all during that time, the companies concerned were bound to pay ten-fold payments for the flared gas, given that the competent government authorities refused to issue special permits allowing the flaring of gas in accordance with the existing government-approved technology. Finally, late last year, on the initiative of the oil and gas producing companies concerned, the Kazakhstan Petroleum Association (KPA), the Kazakhstan Petroleum Lawyers Association (KPLA), and the ROK Government itself, the ROK Parliament, taking into account the existing situation, moved to resolve the problem and passed an amendment changing that legislative requirement and establishing an amended regulation mechanism. Clearly, the general public is interested in securing a favorable environmental climate, but in addressing the issues at hand, it is also necessary to act in a well-considered manner without infringing on the rights of the subsoil users or other business entities. To fully grasp the essence of the above case of impromptu lawmaking, let me give you a clear example. Supposing for a moment that the mayor of Almaty has issued a regulatory document banning the use of stoves in private homes and further banning the use of private automobiles within city limits, all to improve the environmental situation in the city. What would our response be to such a move? At first glance, it might seem that the measure is driven by the concern for public health and everything is very good and proper. However, the country’s legislative base should help promote an efficient development of national economy while the existing problems should be addressed in a well-considered and reasonable manner, rather than just by introducing bans or restrictions. Measures taken by the government should not infringe on the rights of business entities. A balance of interests should be maintained in that important area at all times.
In recent time, Kazakhstan has seen the passage of a series of legislative acts in the field of subsoil use. How would you comment on the passage of such Republic of Kazakhstan laws as the Law On Subsoil and Subsoil Use, the Law On Petroleum and the Law On Production Sharing Agreements (Contracts) in the Conduct of Offshore Petroleum Operations?
I could say that these are all very important regulatory instruments that are absolutely essential for the oil-and-gas industry. The Laws provide for a detailed regulation of relationships in the subsoil use field both on-shore and off-shore. Overall, I would say that those are good laws. What worries me, though, is the stability of their respective provisions. The lawmaking practice of the past few years has shown that laws are all too often amended or supplemented. This is clearly a negative development. Rather than taking their cue from individual government departments or national companies, the lawmakers should try, using legislative provisions as tools, to help regulate the greater and minor issues affecting the oil and gas industry. The greater and the more frequent the changes in the national laws, the more of a confusion there is in the relationships being regulated, with all that resulting in a loss of the original intent of the respective legislative provisions. The cause of lawmaking favors conservative approaches. Laws should regulate the more important essential relationships in the sphere of industrial and social relations being regulated. Legislative enactments should not descend to the level of departmental instruments. It is the market institutions, rather than legislative provisions, that should define, and govern in, any given economic sector. Laws should establish the more general principles governing the conduct of economic and other activities. Laws should only lay down a limited number of mandatory provisions to protect the interests of the state, and of society at large, and protect the rights of the various subjects involved in those relationships, without interfering in the companies normal and legitimate activities. That is the kind of approach that describes a proper rule of law.
The experts and analysts have waited impatiently for the passage of the Law On Petroleum and the Law On Production Sharing Agreements (Contracts) in the Conduct of Offshore Petroleum Operations. It is a well-known fact that the КPLA had played an active role in the meetings of the working parties set up with the Majilis and the Senate to discuss the bill. Have any of the comments or suggestions made by KPLA members been taken into consideration in the final text of the law?
You are quite right there. KPLA did indeed take an active part in the discussion of the draft law. We had formulated several dozen comments and proposals and I am pleased to say that most of those have been accepted by Parliament. Some individual members of the Association had indeed taken part in the discussions in the meetings of the working parties set up with the Majilis and the Senate. From the pages of this Journal, as the KPLA President, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Mr. Valery Bulovich, Ms. Olga Chentsova, Ms. Klara Mukasheva, and Ms. Aigerim Bralina for their invaluable contribution to the improvements to the bill. Let me recall at this point that it is one of the stated objectives of the KPLA to participate in the development and independent peer review of the drafts of regulatory legal instruments. The high intellectual and professional qualities of the KPLA members make it possible for us successfully to meet that objective.
How does Kazakhstan’s own legislative field in the subsoil use sector correlate with the provisions of international law?
Being a subject of international relations in its own right, the Republic of Kazakhstan acts as a full-fledged member of the United Nations and of the many other international organizations. Kazakhstan has signed numerous treaties with other states, which serve as a good basis for the development of bilateral relations in the political and economic domains. Several treaties concluded with other states immediately following independence have provided strong foundations for the signing of investment agreements of great significance to the Republic, in particular, in the development of its oil and gas industry. All that is evidence of the fact that Kazakhstan’s internal legislative field correlates well with international law, something that is of great importance, given that no state can exist in isolation from other countries and pursue a successful development program all at the same time. Let us go back in time, for a moment, to the year 1993 when Kazakhstan’s national economy was in decline, the public administration system was underdeveloped and the public opinion was highly critical of the government’s actions. It was in those highly critical conditions that the President of the Republic made, in my own opinion, the one and only right decision, under the circumstances, to open up Kazakhstan to foreign investors and steer the national economy on to the market economy course. That decision made it possible to conclude the country’s first investment agreements, set up major joint ventures in the petroleum industry and in other economic sectors, and allow Western managers to run those joint ventures. The Republic had given the first foreign investors to come to Kazakhstan some considerable benefits and privileges as well as the stability guaranties of the provisions of agreements and contacts made at the time. It those new conditions of its early independent existence, the Republic of Kazakhstan managed to develop its own legislative basis striking a balance between the respective interests of the Republic and the investors; protect their rights; establish foundations for the investors legitimate activities in Kazakhstan; strengthen the national economy; and promote the new institutions of state power. The stringent observance by the Republic of its obligations under the provisions of respective international treaties and investment contracts has allowed Kazakhstan to establish a reliable investment climate and secure an influx of massive monetary resources, something that, in its own turn, has helped promote the growth of national companies and establish small and medium-sized businesses and restore the nation’s economic vitality. Against that background, it has to be acknowledged that the Republic of Kazakhstan has been able to establish itself as an active force in international relations. The Kazakh economy is well integrated into the world economy and Kazakhstan is seen as a reliable partner and a stable state. The Kazakh legal system is increasingly converging on the established standards of international law. Our law enforcement practice has been recognized by the international community. Our national economy is regarded as a promising one and is developing in accordance with the laws of free market. All those things together make it possible for us to be proud of our country and our people. There is a great hope that Kazakhstan would be able to become the most democratic and secular state in the whole of the post-Soviet space.
National lawyers working for major joint ventures operating in Kazakhstan are sometimes accused of being unpatriotic. At the same time, one is in no doubt that it is largely thanks to their own considerable contribution, in particular, that the development of Kazakhstan’s mineral wealth has been able to proceed so successfully.
I have to confess that working as a lawyer in a joint venture has been both an honorable and difficult thing to do. It is honorable because one has been invited to work in the international business field, because one’s knowledge, professional qualities, and experience have been recognized for what they are, as well as one’s ability to provide legal services exceeding the client’s expectations. Difficult it is because one has to work at the junction of two different legal systems, two different types of mentality and different cultures. A further difficulty is added by the fact that in a joint venture’s field of activities one has to deal with many different branches of law at the same time. One has to be familiar with the provisions of numerous international agreements and investment contracts and have a good knowledge of investment legislation and, especially when the joint venture operates in the subsoil use sector, be familiar with the entire legislative framework regulating the relationships in that particular economic sector. Work in the petroleum industry requires an intimate knowledge of the respective provisions of the tax legislation establishing special types of taxes and obligatory subsoil-use payments; the environmental and land legislations; and the civil and customs legislations. As a joint venture established with the participation of foreign business entities under the national jurisdictions of their respective countries, it is necessary to be familiar with at least the basics of Western contract law and take into account the various possible restrictions and prohibitions imposed by the JV partner’s home country on trading with countries against which international sanctions may apply. At times, it is difficult to explain to the Western client the meaning of the provisions of the sometimes-imperfect national laws or to explain the existing discrepancies in the regulatory legal instruments of equal or different levels. It is not easy either to explain the heavy-handed and, at times unlawful, interference by respective government agencies or officials in business matters. It is difficult to explain the, at times, unlawful court decisions or inadequate law enforcement agency actions. In most such situations, national lawyers find themselves between two fires, so to speak, when they have efficiently to defend the rights and legitimate interests of the company or the investment agreement provisions against unlawful actions from, say, some government regulatory agency. On the other hand and at the same time, they have to be able to convince the client that a given government agency’s or official’s unlawful actions are no more than a particular case and that the existing national legislation may well provide for a just solution to a given conflict situation. It is true that, on some occasions, government officials tend to accuse national lawyers of being unpatriotic or may think that national lawyers tend to be unnecessarily zealous in defending the interests of the joint venture, that is the interests of the foreign JV partner. But, clearly, that is the only way it should be, given that corporate lawyers have an employment contract with their company and are bound by the contract to provide high-standard professional services in the representation of the company’s best interest. Besides, it is the national lawyers working in such companies who are best placed to help with the correct understanding and interpretation of the provisions laid down in the various Kazakh laws and, in doing so, help strengthen the status of national legislation and help promote its efficiency and fairness. Corporate lawyers are the least constrained in their freedom to express their views and, as a result, they are better placed to seek the correct understanding of the provisions of the law and best placed to correctly interpret them. It is only with that freedom of thought and freedom of action that it is possible to affirm justice and the rule of law.
Zhumageldy Sakenovich, a popular saying has it that those who own energy own the world. How efficient, in your own view, is the use of the Kazakhstan’s unique oil potential on both the domestic and international markets?
What we see is that, indeed, certain examples of the way the international community has developed in the past hundred years show that the energy freedom means freedom of the country concerned. Given the correct use of their respective hydrocarbon wealth, countries that are rich in oil or natural gas can indeed be very successful in their development. That, however, is far from being axiomatic. The presence of vast energy resources alone does not help in «owning the world» in those countries where there is no democracy or where the national economy is not based on the market principles or where the government pursues authoritarian policies. Alternatively, the energy resources will be used for the benefit of the larger society and the people as a whole in those countries with the firmly established democratic institutions, with national economy developing in accordance with the laws of free market, with science and technology being advanced, with highly trained labor force, and with the carefully balanced respective interests of the State, the larger society, and the business community. Today, Kazakhstan is recognized as one of the fastest growing nations of the world. That, of course, is not solely due to this country being rich in oil, natural gas or other types of mineral raw materials. The correct and carefully considered national policy, the steadily steered course toward the market relations in the economic field, the positive and attractive investment climate, the well-educated people, the correctly defined priorities in social development, all that, coupled with the country’s vast hydrocarbon wealth and its efficient utilization, has, in the space of the past fourteen years, propelled the Republic of Kazakhstan into the ranks of the more advanced and developed states. One would be hard pressed, indeed, to call this nation a third world country. The energy sector does, indeed, remain this country’s economic development locomotive and its main budget-shaping industry. However, over the past few years, the energy sector has helped advance some other economic sectors and has made it possible to ensure the country’s economic and political security. Kazakhstan is being deferred to and Kazakhstan is being listened to. All of the world’s major business corporations do business with Kazakhstan, and their number is not limited solely to oil corporations. Therein lies a guarantee of future successes for this country and a guarantee of its independence and influence in the world at large. I firmly believe there is no turning back now. This contrasts with my somewhat more pessimistic views of Kazakhstan’s future just a few years ago. Today, I view the future of this country much more optimistically. I would like to hope that the day is not too far away when, possessing Big Energy, Kazakhstan, will also possess a larger portion of the broader world, at least in the sense of having a greater part to play in shaping the processes taking place in the world today.
Zhumageldy Sakenovich, in TCO’s Negotiations and Legal Department of which you are the General Manager, there are a total of 18 lawyers, two of whom are expatriates. Given the rather high likelihood of character incompatibility and differences in practical skills and experience, how have you managed to build a professional team that today is considered one of the most highly skilled in the country’s oil and gas industry?
I am proud of my colleagues and my legal team. Indeed, Tengizchevroil’s Negotiations and Legal Department boasts an excellent force of highly skilled Western and Kazakh lawyers and is supremely capable of meeting the challenges involved in providing the legal support required for the company’s business operations. The range of legal issues handled is very broad indeed. With that in mind, several years ago, I introduced specialization by law branch, something that has been instrumental in raising to new highs the quality of legal service offered to our clients. Every one of our lawyers specializes in a given field of law. For instance, one or several lawyers will be directly responsible for contracts; other for environmental issues; others yet for customs issues, and so on. Every one of us acts as an adviser to the other lawyers when it comes to their own area of expertise, something that has produced some very good results. In my Department, we have several high caliber lawyers who have spent many years in the government service, which makes their contribution invaluable because it is largely thanks to their help that the group has been able to establish good working relationships with the relevant government agencies. I am very pleased, too, with the work of our younger lawyers providing high quality legal services to our clients and developing now into recognized leaders in their own right. Significantly, too, all of them have a good command of the English language, which is gradually developing into their second working language. Another major reason for my group’s successful growth and development is the company management’s continued close involvement in the staff professional and language training. Every year, each of our lawyers attends one or two international legal conferences or workshops, something that allows them to broaden their scope and improve their professional skills. Every year, each of our lawyers attends special English language training courses. On top of that, every opportunity is given to those in our Department who wish to improve their Russian or Kazakh language skills. It is on rare occasions, indeed, that we in N&L turn for help to the outside Western or national law firms. As a rule, we do it only in emergencies when the time is of the essence or when we are specifically asked by the client to do so or else when we want to compare notes regarding our own interpretation of a given regulatory legal instrument of the Republic of Kazakhstan or foreign country. Not only is our team a close-knit group of fellow-workers but we also maintain very close friendly ties outside the office, being friends on a family basis, attending family gatherings and supporting each other in many ways. It is this that I see as a key to our success and a guarantee of our future achievements.
For over three years now, you have served as President of the Kazakhstan Petroleum Lawyers’ Association (KPLA). Would you say a few words about its work please?
KPLA is our brainchild and has been established on the initiative of lawyers working in the Kazakh oil and gas industry. Originating, as it did, from Tengizchevroil’s Negotiations and Legal Department, the KPLA establishment initiative met with support from lawyers of practically all petroleum industry companies operating in Kazakhstan as well as a number of domestic and Western law firms such as Aequitas, Grata, Coudert Brothers, Salans, and other. In the nearly four years since its inception, the Association has gained recognition both inside Kazakhstan and beyond its borders. We in KPLA have done a lot of work to create a filing system concerning the law application practice in the Kazakhstan oil and gas industry and to promote advanced lawyer training programs. We have participated in the discussion of several draft ROK legislative instruments directly or indirectly affecting the subsoil use sector. KPLA has published several books and has established its own regular journal. We have conducted a number of legal conferences, one of which is the annual Atyrau Legal Seminar attended by over 200 lawyers, petroleum industry experts, environmentalists, government officials, members of Parliament, judges, prosecutors, scientists, and legal scholars. They come from a broad range of geographic regions including Kazakhstan, Russia, the United States, the UK, Sweden, and other countries. All that testifies to the high reputation earned by that legal conference, its high professional status, and the urgency of issues brought to the attention of participants in the Seminar. By the way, the Fourth Atyrau Legal Seminar is due to be held, naturally, in the City of Atyrau, on 14 April 2006. I would like to use this opportunity to invite the readers to attend the Seminar. Based on the results of each year’s gathering, we have published a collection of papers and reports presented by the participants, which has now become a standard desk book for lawyers involved in the oil and gas industry. In 2004, KPLA established its own journal entitled Subsoil Use and Law. Besides, we publish several issues of the KPLA Newsletter every year. KPLA is calling upon all in the Kazakhstan’s legal community to work together for the implementation of joint projects, from which, I am convinced, everyone will benefit.
Zhumageldy Sakenovich, many have described you as demanding manager, a loyal friend and a person passionate about his work. Do you regard yourself as a happy man?
You know, all my life I have set myself objectives and have worked with all I have got to accomplish them. I cannot say I have always succeeded with ease. I only managed to get myself enrolled in law school on a second try. As it happened, I failed on my first attempt, which came after three years in the military service, when I failed to score the required minimum number of points. However, once there, I made a good student earning an advanced scholarship pay. When later I tried to become a judge, that had not come easy either as I had to overcome numerous obstacles on the way there. You may recall that I started my professional career in the Russian Federation. Having no outside support of any kind, having no experience whatsoever of work in the law enforcement agencies, having no recommendations, and having a pretty uncommon-sounding name to the Russian ear, I had to spend a lot of time in the corridors of power before I finally succeeded in being nominated a judge. However, once I became one, I made none of the people who believed in me blush for what I did afterwards. Working in the judiciary was truly my professional element. I will forever remain grateful to life for having made it to the ranks of the judiciary and rising to the very pinnacle of the justice system in Kazakhstan. I had served for nearly six years as a Republic of Kazakhstan Supreme Court Justice before being asked to accept other high government positions.
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